Deiadra Swartz - Lawyer and professor
Career Path: Trade compliance was not her initial practice area right out of law school. Midway through her career she found an interest in trade compliance and has been in the industry now for 9 years.
US export compliance compared with other countries: US export regulations are far more reaching than other country's regulations. Deemed exports and secondary sanctions are unique to US regulation.
Academic side of trade compliance: She teaches law and trade compliance to law students and also teacher through the Denver World Trade Center.
World Trade Center: There are 330 World Trade Centers around the world and while each of their mission statements are different, they offer similar services such as education, networking, and assistance to exporters.
Mentoring: Networking and finding a mentor helps you to find out what jobs are actually available in international trade. Mentors are not there to give you a job, they are there to introduce you to people in the industry and weigh opportunities that come your way. The job of a mentor is to expand horizons not narrow them.
Three divisions of international trade:
policy transactions compliance
How can you get a global view when you just learn your country's law?
US subsidiaries and affiliates need to be trained on US law Many countries' regulations are based on the same international agreements so they are more similar than you think
Should a trade compliance team report to the business or to the legal team?
Legal should be separate so they are free to advise independently Business people look at risk differently than a compliance person Best case would be to have a compliance team independent from both
Contact us:
Email: womenintradepodcast@gmail.com
Twitter: @TradePodcast
Full Episode transcript:
Introduction (00:01):
Welcome to Women in Trade, a podcast for up and coming professionals like you in the field of international trade. Kellie Kemock is your guide on this journey, an accomplished lawyer and trade compliance consultant who's passionate about helping young women navigate this complex field, equipping you with the tools and resources you'll need to pursue an exciting and meaningful career. You'll hear candid interviews with other successful female leaders and benefit from their experience. It's time to build the career of your dreams. Here's your host, Kellie Kemock.
Kellie Kemock (00:41):
In today's episode, we'll be talking with Deiadra Swartz, a lawyer, a practitioner of trade compliance, and a professor. You'll hear us discuss the benefits of engaging with the local World Trade Center organization. We'll talk about the politics of international trade and how to go about setting up a mentor relationship.
Deiadra Swartz (01:01):
Mentees are often timid around asking for things from people who are already successful or doing what they wanna do. And so don't go out and request a mentorship, just say, I have a few questions. How did you get started in your business? What are your likes and dislikes?
Kellie Kemock (01:19):
So my first question is what is your experience in international trade and how did you get to where you are today?
Deiadra Swartz (01:29):
Okay, great, thank you, Kelly. So I started in international trade by a very long roundabout way. I have a very bohemian career path, but I started out in the practice of law right after law school. That's where I started. And I was just doing business representation courtroom boardroom representation for small to medium sized businesses. And while I really enjoyed that, I noticed that a lot of my clients were buying and selling businesses. So then I started doing that full time. I got my real estate broker's license and I became certified as evaluation analyst and so I could value a business and sell the business assets and real estate together. So I did that for several years until the financing felt out of that with the economy. So once the financing dried up for buying and selling businesses, I had done a lot of corporate transactions.
(02:28):
And so I began working at a telecommunications company in the law department. And so I was putting together transactions and that was primarily a national company, but I started doing a lot of outside interest related to water districts and water conservation and water education. And through that I was able to put together some international transactions and I was writing and teaching and speaking about water conservation issues at that time. So that really peaked my interest in international trade. First from the water side and then through business. And then I had an opportunity come up at a local company to work in their law and compliance department. And so I've been doing that for nine years. And I focus on international and commercial transactions. I work for a corporation that does business in 229 countries and territories. So that allows me a great opportunity for international business, international travel transactions and regulatory compliance. So <laugh>, short story or long story, that's how I ended up here.
Kellie Kemock (03:39):
Excellent. So you said you had experience as a valuation analyst to value companies. Now does that translate well into customs valuation?
Deiadra Swartz (03:53):
Not so much customs, but one of my roles at my current employment is doing the due diligence when we go to acquire another business. And so that's where that valuation analysis comes in. And it's interesting because using the same market, valuable values and elements, you can value a business in the United States or outside of the United States fairly uniformly. So I find that really fascinating too, the fact that business assets in different parts of the world actually have some of the similar values.
Kellie Kemock (04:31):
Because in my limited experience, I've noticed that sometimes valuation concepts and theories can differ from country to country and even within the US sometimes with accounting principles versus how customs wants things valued. So do you ever run into, I know you said internationally with businesses they seem to be uniform, but do you run into any conflicting regulations regarding value?
Deiadra Swartz (05:00):
Oh sure, absolutely. They're all different kinds of accounting methods and the accounting methods used in the United States aren't the same ones used in other countries. So you really have to know the business accounting principles or at least understand them. I don't claim to know them, but at least understand the differences. And then I also find it really interesting in due diligence work that whether you are analyzing the risk in Germany or in Singapore or someplace else, there are basic business risks that you need to look at. For example, for export compliance or for anticorruption compliance. And so it's a matter of identifying those risks and addressing them.
Kellie Kemock (05:45):
Okay. So export compliance. Do you think US export compliance, I mean it seems to be much more stringent than any other country that you would run into.
Deiadra Swartz (05:57):
I don't know that it's more stringent, it's more far reaching. I would say that for example, the US laws actually attached to an item that's exported from the US for the rest of that item's life. So regardless of how many times it's bought and sold in different countries, US export law is still attached just to that. And then there are deemed board and secondary sanctions that are kind of unique to the United States, meaning that we claim jurisdiction over all items and business wherever it's located in the world. And in some cases for example, Russia, United States government actually imposes a secondary sanctions to prevent other people from doing business with persons that the US government decides not to do business with. So it's much more far reaching. I don't know that it's more complex <affirmative>, but definitely more far reaching for sure.
Kellie Kemock (06:52):
So when you do international company acquisition, is export control your number one concern?
Deiadra Swartz (07:02):
Yeah, it's one of the big ones. Anti-corruption and export. And the reason those kind of go hand in hand and the reason they're so highly valued or investigated is because there's so much enforcement activity today, That's where the US government is spending a lot of time enforcing sanctions, export controls and anti-corruption measures. And because that's where the US government focuses its attention, <affirmative>, then that's where we need to focus our attention.
Kellie Kemock (07:35):
That's where the high dollar fines come in.
Deiadra Swartz (07:38):
Exactly.
Kellie Kemock (07:42):
Have these 3 0 1 Chinese import tariffs. Has that affected what you do?
Deiadra Swartz (07:49):
Yes. The trade war with China has impacted our industry, both on the imports into China, i e customers purchasing our goods and then imports into the United States. And it's not a huge dollar amount, it's the fact that we're paying attention to details and tracking things. And we know that with all the tension, there's likely to be more changes in the export regulations and import regulations. So it's more of making our customers and our industry what's the word? Insecure, I think is the word, cuz we're not sure what the future holds, but we anticipate that there's more coming.
Kellie Kemock (08:39):
It seems like more so than any other time a company has to be able to pivot on whatever sort of regulation gets implemented. <laugh>.
Deiadra Swartz (08:50):
Exactly. And not only pivoting, but how do you strategically plan for some of these things? In some ways it's impossible in other ways. You just do your best and try to strategically plan what could happen if this happens, what are we gonna do in response and how do we plan for those things?
Kellie Kemock (09:09):
So speaking of pivoting, can I ask you about your academic life and where you are in involved with academia with international trade?
Deiadra Swartz (09:23):
Sure, sure. Yeah. So I graduated from law school many, many years ago, and since then I've always maintained a foothold in academia because I think it's important, one, because there's no reason for me not to share my knowledge and expertise. And two, I always learn more when I do that. So over the years I've taught law at university, I've taught international trade and export at a local institute associated with World Trade Center. I've also I serve on the board of directors of a center for International and comparative law. And that keeps me in the game. What are the new issues, what are the cutting issues in academia as far as research papers? And where is the focus on not only research but different initiatives that are being advanced in order to promote trade? So I've often been involved in that and some of my best experiences are working with the World Trade Center and some other local organizations and international organizations in order to help promote trade because I feel that promoting trade between countries and jurisdictions can only help us. I don't think there's a downside to it. And right now there's quite a bit of tension. So it's always good to get out and talk to other people who are, for example, doing business in China and some of the issues they're facing and people doing business in Russia and the issues they're facing, <affirmative>. So the learning opportunity as well as keeping up with what's going on.
Kellie Kemock (11:03):
So the World Trade Center is, are they, is their client mainly companies that are wanting to improve their trading capacity or are there clients students of international trade or people professionals working in international trade?
Deiadra Swartz (11:24):
All of the above. So World Trade Center Association, there are about 330 located around the world and it's like a network, but it's promoting trade with their home country. It's teaching students and people who want to be exporters how to do it properly, getting them in touch with the appropriate government agencies. It's promoting trade missions between countries and travel and arrangements that way, as well as anyone who wants to be involved in trade, anyone currently involved in trade as well as a number of service providers that support international trade. So it's across the board a whole bunch of different people working together to promote trade.
Kellie Kemock (12:12):
Well, I guess I was under the impression that the World Trade Center was just for small companies wanting to improve trade, but our audience, the target audience for this podcast would be up and coming professionals particularly women in the field who want to advance their career. And so how could getting involved with their local World Trade Center, how could that advance a career?
Deiadra Swartz (12:43):
Oh yeah, there are lots of ways. One, and I should say each World Trade Center location has a different mission statement. Some put on trade events, some do just World Trade Day, some do education. So they're all different. But the good news is once you coordinate with your local World Trade Center you now have a network, a World Trade Center, all around the world that will support you in whatever it is you want to do. And our World Trade Center here in Denver actually posts jobs in international trade and connects people to jobs and that sort of thing. So that's one of the things they do. But even when I travel and I do quite a bit of international travel, I often step in and introduce myself at World Trade Centers in other cities. And I feel like I have a network already there on the ground of people that would help me if I needed it can get me in touch with someone if I needed. Or sometimes just the one in Amsterdam is located next to the airport. And so I just went there when I had a layover. So there are lots of different ways that a World Trade Center can help, but it's mainly the networking opportunity to get in touch if that's what you wanna do for a career or you're already working in international trade, you wanna expand your business, that's a great opportunity. In addition to oit, I think World Trade Center is a pretty good resource.
Kellie Kemock (14:11):
Are there any other organizations or groups that you might recommend for people just starting out or trying to build their career?
Deiadra Swartz (14:22):
I'm sure there are organizations, I'm trying to think of some
Kellie Kemock (14:26):
Or the other question I have is the certifications that Oh yeah, people can get in order to build their career too. It's all the same kind of topic where how can people network and how can they build their resume? What is it that you would suggest for someone just starting out?
Deiadra Swartz (14:47):
Yeah, that's a really good question. So the World Trade Center, Denver offers a certification program and you don't have to be in Denver to attend the classes. They have online training and videos and everything, but you could get certification through there. There are a number of places that offer certification, and I think that's particularly important. If you don't have a lot of experience, then you can show that you've gone to get this additional education. And I think the one in Denver is a one year program and it's not full time. You know, continue work and everything to get your certification, but there are a number of 'em. Export Compliance Training Institute is a really good one. And that's more intense educational training for specific type of export regulation. Like you could do defense related exports or you could do commercial related. That's a good one. I think more important than additional certification might be the networking, honestly. And I think it's always good to know people surround yourself with people who do the things you wanna do and learn from them. And I also found every stage of my life, I have found that a mentor is really important, so I would strongly encourage that as well.
Kellie Kemock (16:08):
So I have a few years of experience in international trade, but I've been contacted by a couple of my previous coworkers and people that I met through OIT asking these types of questions. So I wanted the podcast here to give them different perspectives. How does one start?
Deiadra Swartz (16:30):
The ones I've done are unofficial mentoring programs, and it's just people I meet along the way, whether it's at a law school event or maybe an intern that worked with our company for a while or something. It's just people I meet along the way and they say, Oh, I'd really like to do that someday. How did you get into it? And it's more of an informal conversation, but mentoring in the sense that I share with them my experiences, my mistakes, give them pointers, coaching on some things just to help them along. And I think it's also important for mentorship because you don't know what the future holds. Well, none of us do, but you don't know specifically what kinds of jobs there are in international trade <affirmative> until you go to some job fairs or until you meet different people and just ask around if you're genuinely interested in a mentorship opportunity.
(17:29):
There are plenty of people who are available to do it. I always have one or two mentors and I have two currently, and they each need different types of support from me, but just depending on where they are in their career. And it's not like I'm gonna help them get a job or anything like that, that it's just helping prepare them for different opportunities or helping them take the opportunities that come to them <affirmative> and then grow their career. And I can tell them, Oh, I did it this way, but that doesn't mean you have to. And I always tell my mentees, You don't have to make the same mistakes I did because I'm sharing them with you. So we all make mistakes, but it's just a matter of learning. And I think that's a really important part. There aren't a lot of women in high levels of international trade. I'd like to see more. So I think it's also good to find a woman that you trust and respect and just start asking questions and then ask them sometime, Oh, could we meet maybe once a month and I could ask more questions, Does that work for you? And I take a much more informal approach, but I have had mentees that came to me with very specific needs and goals. And so we worked on those together.
Kellie Kemock (18:44):
I love the idea, but it is a little intimidating from a mentee's perspective to reach out and ask for help. And I appreciate the women who have reached out to me, but do you have advice from the mentors perspective? Like you said, I can just share with them my experience and how I got to where I am today. But I mean there's no one route. I think you touched on it a little bit where you have a law degree, some people, some people just have experience or a certification. It's such a wide field, it's kind of hard to provide advice,
Deiadra Swartz (19:23):
Right? It is. I totally agree with you. And in that respect, I introduce them to those other people like Oh, come with me to this event now I want you to talk to so and so because they do this or come meet Mary because she started a totally different career path. And I think it's more of expanding their horizons, not narrowing them <affirmative>. And I think mentors feel like they have to come up with all the answers. I don't have all the answers. So when someone comes to me, I'm like, Oh, that's a good question. Let me ask some people I know and let's talk about it and find some place where you would fit. Or maybe they decide, Oh, the additional schooling's not what I want right now. And so let's talk about that and introduce them to other people. I think it can be intimidating or frustrating maybe on both parts, but that's why I think you need to constantly have open communication with your mentor mentee in that relationship. You have to be honest about what you both want. I've had sometimes a law student will wanna come meet with me and instantly they ask me for a job. Well, that's not what mentoring is. So don't ever ask for a job. I
Kellie Kemock (20:39):
Agree
Deiadra Swartz (20:40):
For mentorship,
Kellie Kemock (20:42):
I do agree with that. If you find a good mentor, which I feel like I will never ask that mentor for a job because I don't want that to be the type of relationship that we have. I want to be able to just ask questions and ask and get guidance. And I, it's true. I really think I didn't know if that was something out someone else would believe in as well. But I definitely feel the same way that if you have a mentor, if you have the opportunity to have a mentor that shouldn't be the person who hires you, they should just guide you on where and how to get hired.
Deiadra Swartz (21:21):
Exactly, exactly. Awesome. So you know what I'm saying. And again, it's a take relationship. What are you in it for? Why are you doing it? What's the purpose, the end goal? And then if everybody's open and honest about that, I think it could be a really healthy mentorship relationship.
Kellie Kemock (21:41):
And then the other question I always have is, do you have to put a label on it? Do you have to say can you be my mentor or can it just be someone in the industry that you reach out to and keep in touch with?
Deiadra Swartz (21:54):
Yeah, I think it can be. I don't think you have to label it <laugh>. I think if you're asking someone questions, and I think that's the other thing, mentees are often timid around asking for things from people who are already successful or doing what they wanna do. And so don't make, don't go out and request a mentorship. Just say, I have a few questions. How did you get started in your business? What are your likes and dislikes? What challenges you? And just start asking some questions and then see if that's the type of relationship you guys wanna have. And then maybe say, Oh, can we formalize this? Can I ask you more questions? Could we meet once a month? That kind of thing. You have to get to know each other first. I don't think every mentor mentee relationship is destined to being everything everybody wants. So you just have to feel it out. And if the person has the time to devote to answering your questions and is willing to do that, you don't ever have to call it a mentorship <affirmative> just say, Oh, let's do lunch once a month. And I appreciate your time
Kellie Kemock (22:55):
And especially now with all these difficult topics coming up in international trade with the 3 0 1 and potentially export regulations becoming more complicated. I mean just to be able to talk it out with somebody get a different perspective is super helpful, right?
Deiadra Swartz (23:12):
Yeah, it is like I call it a support group.
Kellie Kemock (23:15):
<laugh> a
Deiadra Swartz (23:16):
Bunch or a of people in international trade, we all get together, we commiserate, we complain, then we talk about where it's headed and it just makes us feel better
Kellie Kemock (23:25):
If you just try to keep up to date by yourself. It feels overwhelming with how many topics and changes and hard to keep
Deiadra Swartz (23:34):
Up. Absolutely.
Kellie Kemock (23:36):
Well, one question I did wanna ask you was in regards to academic industry, if someone wanted to get into research or maybe this also involves government work if that's the type of international trade that they wanted to practice, do you have any guidance or suggestions on how they can go that route instead of maybe the professional transactional in a corporation route?
Deiadra Swartz (24:06):
Right. That's a really good question. So I think you have to do some background research first because you wouldn't want to be associated with an institution an agency or something that did not have a good reputation. Because if you start out there, I think that bad reputation or difficult reputation would follow you wherever you go. So if you're interested in government work or academia, do some background research and ask people, people trust and respect what they feel about the institution. Also go online, learn everything you can about it. Who's on the board of directors? What is their mission statement? What are they doing? Because you don't want your personal values aligned with something that you don't believe in. For example, in international trade or in international law, there's trade, there's transactions, there's human rights, there's everything. And I'm not saying any one of those are better or worse than the other.
(25:09):
It's just you want to align your goals with that if that's where you wanna go. So think about that from an institution perspective and ask people you trust and respect and even follow them on LinkedIn or something to see what kind of work they're doing before you get associated with them. <affirmative>. And then I would just read everything I can. When I was writing and speaking on water issues, I was just constantly reading what other people are doing and other parts of the world and what their big issues were and where the body of research was headed on that issue too. So I think it's a matter of reading and networking
Kellie Kemock (25:49):
Because it seems like you mentioned all of the different types of research that could be done. It seems like trade more so than accounting is very political because there, oh,
Deiadra Swartz (26:02):
It is
Kellie Kemock (26:04):
So many more opinions and different ways to do things rather than accounting seems to be <laugh> from an outsider's perspective seems to be black and white. This is how you do it, these are the rules, this is how you follow it. But the trade industry is just so interesting to me because yes, the US has these particular rules, but then like you were saying, there's also room for discussion and research on human rights and should we have free trade agreements? I mean that was the biggest argument of the 2016 election, that free trade is bad, is it bad? Everyone has an opinion and it seems that it's getting even more political.
Deiadra Swartz (26:45):
That is so true. And all the tensions around that, cuz when you look at international trade, you're talking about international affairs, foreign policy, trade policy, commerce and industry. And of course politics weaves in and out of every one of those elements. And so you have to decide where you are going to be in that. I try to remain as neutral as possible and support just the business objectives in front of me. But it's challenging, especially in these days. And there's a lot of trade tension and I'm not sure the everyday person understands how trade impacts their life. You can live in St. Louis, Missouri and go do your shopping and you're surrounded, maybe there are farmers nearby or not too far away that're impacted by tariffs. But in your day to day life, you don't realize how your life is impacted by trade until something goes wrong or the costs go up because we're impacted by tariffs.
(27:43):
And so I think the everyday person doesn't give it much thought, whereas the rest of us, like you and me, we're in every day and so we're thinking about it, reading about it, and I read at least four different international news wire services every day just so I can get a different perspective on things. I think that's also important for international trade. You don't wanna just always come at everything With the US perspective, <affirmative>, I mean the rest of the world already thinks that we're very US centric, we're very American centric. And so I think it's important to expand our own horizons and try to see things from other people's perspective. And again, going back to yours, it's not a value judgment. It's not whether trade is good or bad or trade deficit is a negative thing or the fact that we're able to trade internationally and that means we're able to purchase goods from other countries.
(28:37):
We might have a trade deficit and that we're purchasing more than we're sending out. But to me, if we are a successful country or successful company that's able to purchase things and manufacture and do what we need to do in business, then that's a good thing, whether it's a deficit or not. So I think it's important not to get caught up in all the politics because that can be very judgmental, <affirmative> and said people have a lot of opinions. I think if we focus outside of ourselves then we're able to see trade for what it is. And it's a matter of doing business on a global scale.
Kellie Kemock (29:13):
If you look into trade, you look into it, there will always be winners and losers when businesses move or the decisions are made, Trade policy is trying to limit the amount of losers. What is that saying where it's like all boats rise, a rising tide rises, raises all boats or something like that. So it's like we're trying to make the best result for everyone even though there might be some losers or someone might get harmed in the process or someone might have a negative impact because of
Deiadra Swartz (29:44):
It. And there are costs associated with doing business. There are costs and risks in everything that we do. And now we're just seeing a little bit more cost on the export import side than we did before. But the risks were always there. And so that's just a matter of doing business
Kellie Kemock (30:02):
<affirmative>. So or do you think it could be divided in such a way to describe international trade in two different sectors? Like a policy sector and a transactional sector or just a compliance trade? Compliance sector. So trade compliance is analyzing the rules that are in place in that particular country. And then trade policy is the more political side where you'd move to dc, you'd work on a particular policy lobbying and all of that. Could you see a division of two different sides of trade compliance or are there more divisions or what is your opinion on that?
Deiadra Swartz (30:45):
Yeah, I definitely see those divisions. There's policy, which is really the interacting with the government and trying to influence decisions and that sort of thing. So policy and then there that's trade policy. Then there are definitely trade transactions. What are you doing in this country? Are you buying, are you selling? How is that accomplished and everything. And then of course, neither one of those can stand alone because compliance I think is the umbrella over it. It's the regulations keeping on top of the regulations, understanding them, knowing what you have to do in order to support your business transactions or in order to support your policy decisions. So I think compliance might be the umbrella over the other two, but there's definitely three different divisions.
Kellie Kemock (31:32):
My biggest struggle right now is just people ask me what I do. Not an easy thing, <laugh>, I just say important export people buying and selling things across borders. But it's so much more than that
Deiadra Swartz (31:46):
<affirmative>. That's true. And and how well are we able to say what we do and how can we make other people understand that? Like I said, a lot of people in the US are not up on what's important in international trade circle. So I think sometimes we have to explain more If you're at a cocktail party, <affirmative> kinda hard to explain exactly what you do. But in the scheme of things, the fact that we are doing business globally, all of us are, whether we know it or not, are impacted by global business and global trade. And so I think it's important to share a little bit of that wherever we can so people understand
Kellie Kemock (32:26):
<affirmative>. Yeah, I mean if someone gave me 30 minutes I would talk about my job, but I'm trying to say they just asked me how I did what I do <laugh> and they don't want a 30 minute treatise on trade. So let's <laugh> narrow this down.
Deiadra Swartz (32:41):
<laugh>, right? When I used to do, I still do a lot of export but I also did anti-corruption compliance. And I remember sometime one time someone asked me what do I do? And I said, Oh I manage corruption for our company <laugh>. We all laugh. I mean
Kellie Kemock (33:01):
<laugh>. Yes, you make sure they aren't corrupt.
Deiadra Swartz (33:05):
That's right. And then there's one other benefit of doing international business and international trade and that's the international travel. So I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that because as you know I love to travel the world and I've been to 56 countries so far. And so I think that's another added benefit and the fun part of it.
Kellie Kemock (33:26):
Excellent. Well I guess I have a narrow view of that because I know US import regulations like the back of my hand and somewhat understanding export regulations, but I don't know other countries regulations as much as I know the us. So it feels like I'm very US centered. So when you talk about travel, how does that fit into someone who has their education based in the us?
Deiadra Swartz (33:54):
Yeah, that's a really good point. So there are a couple ways to approach it. One is if you work for a global corporation, then their subsidiaries and affiliates in other countries have to know US law in order to make sure they're not violating the regulations. So you have to teach export, import and all the countries where your business operates. That's one part of it. <affirmative>. The other part is EU regulations are based on the exact same foundation that US regulations are. And if you're familiar with the Vassar arrangement for export classifications, there are now 30 different countries that use the exact same basis for classifying their products for exports. So if you understand the US regulations which are based on boar, then you automatically understand you'll have basically the same export compliance regime in all those other countries. So while it is daunting, it is a whole different set of regulations and that's why we always hire people in country to help with that. It's not as impossible as it sounds because they're all based on some of the same regulations.
Kellie Kemock (35:07):
And then you mentioned something that made me think of it, but I typically ask this of most people because I haven't come up with a consensus yet. But if what is your opinion on whether a trade compliance team in a corporation should be reporting to supply chain or the business side or I've seen where we reported into legal. So do you have an opinion on which way that should be structured?
Deiadra Swartz (35:41):
I do <laugh>. So I have actually worked in organizations that reported to legal <affirmative> that reported to the business and then reported to the office of internal governance. And here's why I think the compliance trade compliance team should be separate from legal is because you go to legal for advice, but I think it should be entirely separate department so that there's no what's the word I'm looking for? Cross pollination. There's no issues that the lawyers already know about you. Sometimes you need that independent legal opinion on something and I think that's really important to have a legal department doing that advising you yet the compliance department runs independently of that. And then I also did work when we reported to the business unit, the business owner part of it. And while that was important for understanding the business controls, then you don't want business people making regulatory and compliance decisions
Kellie Kemock (36:45):
<affirmative>
Deiadra Swartz (36:45):
Because they tend to look at risk differently than we do. And so I think you definitely need an independent compliance department for making those decisions and analyzing risks outside of the business goals. And then you need to be able to also go to separate council for opinions when you need it. That's just my opinion. <affirmative>, I think that's the best way to balance your risks.
Kellie Kemock (37:11):
It's definitely a balancing act and I appreciate your answer being multifaceted. No, just one answer. It depends on the knowledge of your legal team. Is there someone in the legal department that has international trade experience that could answer those questions or it depends on the size of the company. Can you really afford to have three different people weighing in with three different perspectives when your business, your export import business is quite small,
Deiadra Swartz (37:46):
<affirmative>, and then it all goes down to the level of risk. We as compliance people all day long, we could say no, but that's not gonna support the business objectives. Sometimes we have to find a way and then that's the business that determines their appetite for risk and we just help them along the way to ensure they're compliant with the regulation.
Kellie Kemock (38:08):
If you go, you're in the trade compliance department and you go and you say, Hey, we probably shouldn't be doing X, Y or Z whatever shipping here using having this customer classifying it this way, we should have a license. All these things that the trade compliance might put a break on. If the business decides that the fines are low enough that they're willing to violate the law essentially, is that a risk that the business is able to take that a violation of the law?
Deiadra Swartz (38:43):
Never. That's an ethical issue, never. But if it's a matter of oh we could postpone this transaction for four weeks while we go get an OFAC license to do this or something, that's different. But to go out and do something knowing that is contrary to the law, no, you could never support that. Agree to it clearly. Ethical and legal violation.
Kellie Kemock (39:07):
I always felt like I was the person who says, no, put the break on everything. No, you can't do that. No, you can't do that. But like you said, you might have to be, instead the person that says you can't do this, but you can do this or let's wait four weeks like you said. So you always have to be within the law, but the risk that your company needs to decide is should we get this customs decision ruling or not? That kind of thing.
Deiadra Swartz (39:40):
So even if I do find some exception in the law where this item doesn't need a license or conversely I decide, oh we do need an OFAC license before we can send that to Sudan or something. So even if that's my decision, then it's up to the business if it's gonna take four weeks and all of this effort and we have to ask the government for it. And so all of these things, are you willing to invest that time capital resource into that and will it be worth it in the end if it's something where we're not gonna make that much money and then we're gonna have a huge compliance burden cuz we have an OEC license, but it requires a lot of reporting, <affirmative> and log and is it worth it? I don't know. I mean that's for the business side, but the fact that they can't do it without a license, that's my decision and there's no negotiating that <affirmative>. But if we do want to go for the license, that's the business decision. Are they willing to do it? And keep in mind they're gonna have work to do too. They have to report to me so often they have to monitor everything and make sure it's done. So is that what they're willing to do? Is there enough revenue to support that? Does it make sense from a business perspective? That's the kind of decisions they make you and I make the decisions. No, you can't do that without a license, so you're not doing it tomorrow.
Kellie Kemock (41:01):
<affirmative>, we say yes or no, this violates or you can do X, Y, and Z and then they can decide which one X, Y, or Z do they want to do. Right.
Deiadra Swartz (41:09):
Okay.
Kellie Kemock (41:10):
<affirmative>. Well that's all I had for you today. I appreciate all the time. I know you have a busy schedule so we can wrap it up for today and I definitely appreciate your time and your expertise and your opinions. Thank you so much.