Season 1: Episode 4

Lila Landis - Certified U.S. Export Compliance Officer and Licensed Customs Broker

Lila Landis talks to me about her career path through multiple different industries and roles. She discusses what she looks for when hiring a trade professional, her leadership style, and her thoughts on mentoring.

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Email: womenintradepodcast@gmail.com

Twitter: @Tradepodcast

Full episode transcript:

Introduction (00:01):

Welcome to Women In Trade, a podcast for up and coming professionals like you in the field of international trade. Kellie Kemock is your guide on this journey, an accomplished lawyer and trade compliance consultant who's passionate about helping young women navigate this complex field equipping you with the tools and resources you'll need to pursue an exciting and meaningful career. You'll hear candid interviews with other successful female leaders and benefit from their experience. It's time to build the career of your dreams. Here's your host, Kellie Kemock.

Kellie Kemock (00:40):

Today we have Lila Landis on the show and we'll be asking her about her career path. So welcome and thank you for talking with us today. If you could just tell us about yourself and about how you got into trade compliance and where you are today.

Lila Landis (00:55):

Great. Thank you so much for inviting me to talk to your listeners. So I started in trade compliance really by falling into it, and I think a lot of people who were in the field didn't set out and go major in trade compliance as a degree and know that they were gonna do that. I studied languages in high school and in college, and I majored in international business because I wanted to be able to use languages and I wanted to be able to travel, but I really didn't wanna be a teacher. I didn't wanna be a translator. So I majored in international business, not quite sure what I was gonna do with that, but that I would have some kind of international scoped job. So then I started working in an international customer service position for a big industrial manufacturer and using my Spanish skills serving clients in Latin America.

(01:49):

And from there you started working with their export coordinators who were really logistics people who were working with freight forwarders coordinating the exports and started learning about eco terms and international logistics and things like that. I was like, Okay, this is pretty interesting. While I was still at that same company, I was approached to go to one of their divisions for an inside sales role for Latin America. And one of the questions they asked me in the interview was, Do you know Inco terms? And I said, Yes. Yeah, I'm familiar with inco terms from working with the export coordinators and the one interviewer whispers to the other one, we should just hire her now because <laugh> been struggling so much with inco terms, with all the international business that they were doing that really that was just a big thing for them to have someone who understood them and could advise them on that. So moved into that role and you was helping them with info terms on their contracts. And then from there they started getting these customers asking for these NAFTA certificates. I don't really know what this is, but here, can you do this for me? So I was living in Milwaukee at that time and I sought out the Milwaukee World Trade Association, was able to get some NAFTA training for them, and after that just kind of got bitten by the bug, I think for trade compliance, decided that it's what I wanted to make my career in.

Kellie Kemock (03:18):

Excellent. I think that's a reoccurring theme we are hearing is we didn't know it existed. We didn't know we liked it, and until we were given the opportunity, then we realized that's what we wanted to do. My story is someone gave a presentation at my law school and he came with a pen that lit up and had a recording device and had all these different devices on the pen itself. And he was just talking about how classification can be like, how would you classify this? Is it a pen, is it a microphone? Is it that kind of thing? And how complex it is. And I was like, Wow, that is interesting because I was worried that my career would be boring and getting into trade compliance is definitely not <laugh>.

Lila Landis (04:02):

Yeah, I think it still takes a particular type of person to be attracted to the trade compliance field though.

Kellie Kemock (04:09):

Great. Well, what would you say would make a great compliance person?

Lila Landis (04:14):

I think someone who enjoys details and is detail oriented. And so to me that's one of the signs that I look for when I'm hiring someone who's gonna be on my team in a trade compliance capacity is really someone who's able to dig into the details of what's going on. You mentioned classification, it would be really easy for you to just look at something on the surface and choose a classification and be wrong. We know that in our field, whether it's harmonized, tariff codes or or sml, that the details matter and that they can significantly change the result that you end up with. So I think some, being someone who enjoys digging into those types of details is something that makes people more successful in a trade compliance capacity. And really, I think having an interest in the world is also something that I look for, especially when I'm looking at export compliance in particular.

(05:15):

I think you really have to stay on top of what's happening in the world because you need to have an anticipatory mindset of, I know that there may be sanctions coming because there's this, there's conflict going on right now. And so I look for people who try to stay aware of generally what's going on in the world, what's going on with some of those international politics, because I think it helps you be a much better trade compliance professional doing that kind of horizon scanning and in thinking about how do you prepare your program for those kinds of changes.

Kellie Kemock (05:52):

Excellent. Yes, because we're definitely called upon to do some future telling <laugh> to a crystal ball and tell the company what's gonna happen, but can't always do that. Right. The other thing I wanted to ask you about, so it seemed like your training was on the job training, and that's great. You were able to further your career just by taking on more responsibilities in your current role. But then I noticed on your LinkedIn profile you have the CECO designation, is that how you say

Lila Landis (06:24):

It? Ceco,

Kellie Kemock (06:25):

<affirmative>, <affirmative>. And so what made you go after that certification and how has it helped you?

Lila Landis (06:34):

So when I decided that I really wanted to make trade compliance a career for myself, one of the things that I did is I used LinkedIn and I went and I looked at people in the field who had more senior level positions. So I was looking 5, 10, 15 years out from where I was, where did I wanna be and how did the people who were in those positions get there? So I really wanted to see what were the common themes in terms of the type of experience that they had, the types of certifications, types of education. And to me, three things kept coming up. Lcb broker's license, everybody in trade compliance knows that that's a big certification to have an excellent credential, an mba. So definitely in the more senior positions senior manager, director level and above MBA is very common. And then the last was ceco, really on the export certification side, it was the closest equivalent that I found to a broker's license.

(07:35):

Of course, there's no direct equivalent to a broker's license on the export side because there's nothing that's actually certified by the US government but to me it was the closest equivalent I felt that the title of qsa as far as a certified US export compliance officer, denoted a higher level position than some of the other certifications out there that used specialist in the title. So I felt it was better from a career growth standpoint. And the exam for QSA O was, it's very similar to the broker's exam in terms of the breadth of what it covers and the structure of how they do the exam. So that's really why I chose that.

Kellie Kemock (08:16):

At what point in someone's career would they have to choose import or export? Because I took the brokers exam, I don't feel like it's limited me to import, but if I wanted to actually understand export, I probably would have to get the sseko as well. So where do you have to decide this? Do you have to decide import on export or what would you say would go into that decision?

Lila Landis (08:40):

I'm not sure that you do have to decide. I feel like it's quite possible to do both. I mean, it really depends on the type of company that you're at and the size of the company as well. I would say a lot of small to medium sized companies have very small trade compliance teams that are going to be really juggling both import and export. So there's plenty of opportunities for you to be able to flex between the two and handle both importing and exporting. I think it's something where it depends on how someone gets into the industry to start out with. So there's different paths to getting into trade compliance. I talked about my path, which was starting at for an importer, exporter in a customer service role and really focused on the export side. But a lot of people may start out working for a freight forwarder or for a customs broker that way but I think that there's a lot of knowledge and skills that can transfer back and forth between import and export.

(09:43):

And so I don't think it's something where you have to say, I've chosen the import path that the fork and the road, and so now I'm stuck on imports forever. I think there's definitely an opportunity to be able to do both. But in terms of certifications, that really depends on the industry, right? Because you can do exports in an industry that doesn't really have a lot that's controlled, where you're more focused on classifications, on EI filings on maybe CT pad for exporters or helping the importer on the other side, things like that versus being in an industry where it's highly controlled and maybe you're gonna be doing a lot more work on the licensing side of things.

Kellie Kemock (10:29):

And as an export professional and even with the CECO designation, how much of that is US based and how much do you need to know foreign countries export regulations?

Lila Landis (10:46):

So the SSEKO is definitely all US based. That is when you are taking the exam for qse O, it is based on ar i, ihr, ofac, a little bit of census. So that's definitely US space in my world. In the positions that I've held, I have had to learn export controls and export and import regulations for other countries just based on the scope that I've had. So in my previous position, I was building a global trade compliance program that was in multiple regions for the company that I was working for Poly One. So building out a European trade compliance team, you have to be able to talk about European trade compliance regulations and they have their own export controls both at an EU level and then also at an individual country level. Same with the import regulations. You have some things that are particular to the country and then you have things that are governed by the eu. And so there's a lot of nuances there, but I think that that's really something that as trade becomes more dynamic and as you have more companies who are looking at trade as being more than just us export focused, that there's gonna be a greater demand for that from our trade compliance professionals to really think more globally and multi-jurisdictional in terms of what regulations apply and how do we comply with them.

Kellie Kemock (12:15):

When you are looking to hire somebody, how much do these three things weigh in your decision? Their years of experience or what their experiences in their level of curiosity and attention to detail and just do they have the mindset to be a trade professional? And then finally what certifications they have on a piece of paper? How do those play out from a hiring perspective?

Lila Landis (12:41):

So I would say that the curiosity and the attention to detail are things that are really, really important to me. So if I'm interviewing someone, they could have a great resume in all the certifications and if I get no feeling from them that there's an attention to detail or there's any curiosity in the field, that's probably not someone that I want on my team just because I feel like then that's gonna be someone who is probably looking for me to just give them a cookbook where it's all laid out for them and they get to just follow step by step and be done. And that's kind of uncommon in our industry. You run into a lot of situations where you have to go figure it out. You have new regulations, you have updates to regulations, you have just brand new situations that you run into where I may not have a written process for every single situation you encounter.

(13:36):

And so someone who lacks any kind of curiosity is gonna struggle in that kind of environment. So that's really important to me. And then I would say experience would be second. I would look at how many years, but also what the experience is in. Again, I think that someone who has a more varied experience, sometimes I see that as an asset because it tells me they can learn new things versus someone who may have been doing the exact same role for a very long time and maybe their skills have become kind of stagnant certifications. I, I'm listing that last not because it's not important, but it's one piece of the pie. And to me, just because someone has a certification doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be well versed in all of the regulations or the specific ones that are really of relevance for the role or for my team.

Kellie Kemock (14:35):

<affirmative>, I feel like my first job in trade compliance, I had zero experience, but because I had a law degree, I kind of got my foot in the door. So maybe having one of these three things could get your foot in the door, having all of the things could get you in a more senior position maybe. But I think they all play off each other. And of course it depends on your hiring manager. I mean everyone's different, right?

Lila Landis (15:01):

Absolutely. But I would say one of the things for me is I had resumes be sent to me by HR before to be screened for doing a phone interview. And I've seen basic spelling mistakes and I will just write them off. I'm not even gonna do a phone interview with that person. And I've had HR challenge me like, Oh, it's, it's no big deal. They just had one misspelling. But to me it is a big deal because I'm talking about putting someone into a position where details matter. And so then if you haven't spell checked your resume, which ought to be the most spell check document that you ever have, <laugh>, then you don't have enough attention to detail to work in a trade compliance position. So that's the sort of thing where that tells me something about that person that they didn't pay attention to their resume, a super important document <affirmative> before they sent it to me. And really part of it is it's personal preference too. Someone that reports to me, if they have poor spelling and grammar and I'm always having to read their emails with poor spelling and grammar, it's just gonna make me frustrated and I'm not gonna be a good leader to them. And that's not fair to either one of us because I am definitely one who prefers to have good spelling and grammar in my emails, but that's just me, the language person.

Kellie Kemock (16:22):

Yeah, well what kind of team you wanna build? And so that's a good leader too. You would pay attention and you thoughtfully put together your team. So that's a good quality. I think I wanna go back to what you said about someone who has a role where it's step by step if A then B, B then C, do this then that don't think just do. Yeah, that kind of role. I wanted to talk about automation and how that kind of role is being eliminated. And I used to work at Thompson Reuters on their software just for full disclosure. So I kind of have a skewed opinion of technology that is great and I like it but I can see this other side where maybe it's not so great. But my perspective is that those kinds of roles that you were talking about that's very like this and that are being eliminated by automation, but that creates more opportunity for people to research and do those things that machines can't do. Like you were talking about research and everything.

Lila Landis (17:26):

Absolutely. So I'm definitely in favor of technology. I think that technology is gonna be one of the biggest transformations for trade compliance over the next five to 10 years where I think we're still at a point right now where global trade management software is reserved for your billion dollar companies and up and even there are plenty of billion dollar companies who don't use any global trade management software. But I think that that is really going to change that. There's a lot where this is going to just get a lot more penetration within the industry and you're gonna see a lot more importers and exporters making use of at least some of the most basic tools that global trade management software can offer. But the software can only do so much. And to me, one of the big limitations is on the data that's going into it.

(18:18):

So it's a classic software thing of garbage and garbage out. And a lot of times importer and exporters really don't have very good product data from a trade compliance perspective in terms of the way that the product descriptions are set up or the information on country of origin, the way that they're sourcing is set up. And so there's only so much that a software can do when you don't have good data management up front. So I think that there's things that this global trade management software does really well today. For the most part, restricted party screening is something that is a really good use of global trade management software because you don't wanna be sitting there screening thousands of individuals one by one. So it's great to use that. You still need human intervention there though it's not a completely hands off. If you think about with restricted party screening especially in today's global sourcing environment where you have plenty of suppliers who are in Asia Pacific, you may be using non-English characters.

(19:27):

And so then a lot of them restricted party screening softwares really struggle with non-English characters. You have a lot of company names that are going to partially match because you have a lot of restricted parties who purposely use really vague and common company names to try to evade sanctions. So there's definitely things that technology is taking away as a need for human intervention, but it causes additional need for human intervention as well. And there are always going to be things where you need a human with the ability to reason and logic through things and do additional research to be able to do that.

Kellie Kemock (20:10):

And even a human to interpret maybe what the computer is telling them and then turn it into a business proposal or decision. Half of our job, I feel like is translating trade compliance speech into logistics or the business side of things. Here are the options. You can get a license, you can change this. And then they do the analysis of maybe this costs more, there's risk here, all of this. So that communication back and forth, I think you need a human to do that as well. Just the outreach to other groups.

Lila Landis (20:46):

Absolutely. And I think that that's really one of the most important roles that a trade compliance professional can play within a business is understanding the regulations and then translating those into options for the business. Because it's something where I think kind of an old school mindset of trade compliance has been that we're like police who are going to just say no to everything. And that doesn't really do anybody any good because what you communicate out is that don't come to me and ask me questions cuz I'll just tell you can't do it. And so then you're creating blinders within your company because people just don't want to go to someone who they view as obstructionist. So the other way to do things is like to say, instead of saying no, but is to say yes and to say, Okay, we wanna be able to do this shipment, here's how we can do it, right? Here's what that would require versus no, you just can't do it. So I think that that's part of how we as trade compliance professionals really show the value that trade compliance can bring to the company because it's about enabling business while protecting the organization. And that means following the regulations, but finding a way to make the regulations work for you.

Kellie Kemock (22:03):

And that's where the MBA comes in. You have to understand business as well as trade compliance to be in a role it seems like. So just to wrap up this topic, we talked about the role, we talked about automation. Where do you see the future of the profession? Where is trade compliance going? What will it look like in the future?

Lila Landis (22:24):

So I think there's going to be really a lot more emphasis on including your trade compliance professionals much earlier in business decisions. I think right now we're still seeing trade compliance as a bit of an afterthought where, oh, we've decided to change our sourcing from Thailand to Malaysia and we're ready to ship stuff and we have no freight forwarder set up and we don't know if we need an export license or an import permit or various different things where you're coming to you once they've realized that they have a problem. And so I think in the future what we're gonna see instead is senior level trade compliance. People having much more integrated roles with different functions within the business where they're being included and consulted in decisions that are, are being made up front where when they wanna change sourcing from one country to another or making serious changes to the supply chain, maybe adding in an intermediate country where you're gonna do some assembling, really looking at that upfront in terms of how does that change the way that we structure the supply chain?

(23:32):

How does that change country of origin or our ability to use free trade grievance, free trade zones and really just viewing trade compliance as an enabler to the business rather than something that's simply a regulatory requirement. I hope that's where it's going. I think that's where it's going. And I know that a lot of the changes that have been going on right now with both imports and exports has caused a lot of trade compliance professionals to be scrambling trying to adjust and help their organizations react to that. But I think long term, it's very good for our profession because it's an opportunity for us to shine

Kellie Kemock (24:11):

And it's an opportunity to show that automation can't take our jobs. Can you talk about being an empowered official and what that means and that title?

Lila Landis (24:20):

So I'm not an empowered official at Lockheed clarify that I was an empowered official in my previous organization. And so what I can share about that is, so when I joined Poly One at the time, they did not play in the IAR space. So it was something where the only controls that they'd had were E, and those were pretty minor, just typically just controlled for anti-terrorism. But then we had a business unit who was approached by a major handgun manufacturer who wanted them to make a piece part for handguns, and they were really interested in getting into that market, but they'd never done I t A before. And so it was something that was brand new. So I had also never done I T R before, so it was also brand new to me, but I took the initiative to go out and get some formal training on I T A.

(25:18):

So I attended a seminar on that and tried to familiarize myself with the basics of IR controls to then be able to lay out for the business unit, if you wanna play in the IR space, here's what has to happen. And so then just the basics of what does a technology control plan look like? What does a facility control plan look like and how this would change their business moving forward. And based on that, they were able to weigh those requirements against what they saw as the potential business for them with not just this one customer who'd approached them, but also what the potential market was for them to then pursue other IT R opportunities. And ultimately they decided that it was worth it to move forward. So at that point, then we started building an IR program for that business unit. I think it was a really interesting experience, partially because we're talking about creating an IR program for one business unit within a larger company that did not have an IR program.

(26:25):

So trying to segregate what was EER controlled versus what was IAR controlled, I think was really interesting. And I actually found that there was really not many resources out there on how to do that. It seemed like most of the companies that play in that i T R space are all I T A R then it's kind of one or the other. But becoming an empowered official was something that was new to the company since they were new to I T A R. And so I had to sit down with my leader who was the director of logistics and his leader, the vice president of supply chain, and really explain what this meant to designate an empowered official and the authority and the autonomy that I would need to be able to ensure that we were managing it appropriately. I think that was definitely something that was new. The idea that someone would say, No, you can't ship that and really mean no, but that's part of what it means to be an empowered official, is that your role is to ensure ITR compliance.

Kellie Kemock (27:28):

And the empowered official is a designation given under regulation, right? So the government, It's a government title essentially. Yes. Okay.

Lila Landis (27:37):

Yes it is. And so when we went about designating me as the empowered official, I actually drafted a letter for them to sign that included the reference to the regulations to specify, Okay, this is what it is, this is what this means, and we're designating this person as an empowered official.

Kellie Kemock (27:57):

And is it true that being an empowered official, you're the one who goes to jail if something goes wrong,

Lila Landis (28:04):

<laugh>? Not necessarily. So I would say it's so similar to the responsibility you hold as a licensed customs broker, if you're familiar with that on the import side. So yes, you have a responsibility as a designated compliance person for what's going on in your compliance program, but at the same time, there's only so much that you as one person can do. So it's perfectly possible that as an empowered official, the business wants to export something without a license that requires a license and you say, No, stop the shipment and they go forward anyway. That's not your fault. And so then it's not reasonable to expect that you would go to jail for that. But you need to have documented that you knew it needed a license, you told them it needed a license, they wanted to ship it anyway, you told them not to ship it and they still did it. Right? So unfortunately, if you're anybody who's in a situation like that, it's gonna come down to covering yourself, making sure that you've given the correct compliance instructions and you've documented that. But there's only so much that you can do. And unfortunately anyone who finds themselves in a situation like that at a company where they're willing to overrule you as either an empowered official or a licensed broker, it's time for you to search for a new job.

Kellie Kemock (29:32):

Well, and do you have a responsibility to be a whistleblower at that point saying I don't like what's happening here, and you have to just let the government know, or you just would say no?

Lila Landis (29:44):

I mean, that's tough. That's a tough situation. I think that's a personal question that each person is gonna have to ask themselves as far as how they feel about those things. But I would say part of what needs to come into that is even though retaliation may be against company policy or illegal, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And so then you have to consider the fact that being a whistleblower, even internally or externally, could have real consequences for your employment. And are you prepared to deal with those consequences? And so that's why to me, I would say looking for another position to be able to get out of that environment where you're being stuck, being overruled and they're doing things that are legal, definitely should be your first priority. And then if you can secure other employment, then yes, I think that you should be a whistleblower, but you need to look out for yourself and your family.

Kellie Kemock (30:42):

Yeah, interesting. I don't know what I would do in that situation. I wanted to ask you about differences in industry because you've been in a couple different industries, if I'm correct. Okay. And so how do the regulations differ between what I think I saw you had oil and gas company chemicals.

Lila Landis (31:08):

Sure. So I think that to me it's not the regulations that really make the biggest difference between the industries. In my experience it's been the culture, it's been the company culture and the culture of the industry that is very, very different between different industries. So oil and gas, and anyone who has worked in oil and gas will recognize it. It's really a company culture of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And there's very much a desire to just ship it, get it out the door. It's oil and gas, there are no restrictions. And so then it's gonna use the same HTS code for everything, and it's all EER 99. So just it's a very difficult environment for a trade compliance professional because their culture is already set up to be one that doesn't want to have to deal with trade compliance. So you're really fighting against the tide. It doesn't mean that the work isn't necessary or something that's valuable to do, it's just a very differ, difficult culture to operate in. From that perspective when I worked in oil and gas, one of the companies that I worked for, they were using the same harmonized tariff code for absolutely everything that they were exporting. When I started there, it was 84, 31, 43, 80, 65, I believe, parts of oil and gas.

Kellie Kemock (32:37):

You can still recall that.

Lila Landis (32:38):

Nice. Yes. So I'm looking at an invoice that they're sending out. This is a diesel engine, parts of oil and gas. No, not parts of oil and gas. GRI one, AO nominee. This has its own HGS code. You can't just call this all parts of oil and gas, but it was what's the simplest, easiest thing for us to get it out. So I think that's kind of that culture in chemicals. I would say they're a little more open to looking at regulatory compliance because they already have so much regulatory compliance that happens in terms of epa, tosca things like that. And so then there, there's already some of that within the industry. So it's a little easier to then take that a step further and talk about the trade compliance regulations. And there are things that are just necessities for them. So in terms of importing chemicals, TOSCA is gonna come up when you're importing chemicals.

(33:43):

And so then there's more reliance on trade compliance for that. And then that makes the trade compliance function a little more valuable. I would say it's still something where on the export side, you struggle a little bit to get an understanding that there really are export controls that apply to some of the things that they're exporting, but at least with the need for EPA compliance, you typically have product stewardship is typically a function within chemical companies. And so then it's easy to make a connection there to you have a compliance function for some of these chemical regulations. You also have to have a compliance function for trade. Defense is just a whole different world because you, it's very, very US export compliance focused where I've never worked in another industry where people were actually talking about ITR regulations and needing to get ITR licenses in advance and citing it R exemptions that we were going to use and things like that.

(34:49):

That was just amazing to me that there's that level of compliance knowledge outside of trade compliance. But in defense, it's just a fact of life because they know that everything, pretty much everything you're shipping is ITAR controlled, and so they have to be aware of it. And so then compliance is much more integrated into the fabric of that company culture. But I would say one of the differences there is that it's very US export compliance focused. And so then there's still transformation happening within the industry, I believe to really take a more global perspective on trade compliance and understanding that you still have multi-jurisdictional compliance if you wanna be able to re-export an I T R controlled item from another country, sure, you need your US export reexport authorization, but you've also got military controls in regular export controls in the country that you're exporting it from. So really just a shift happening to view this as more dynamic and it goes beyond just US regulations and us extraterritoriality.

Kellie Kemock (35:58):

And I love that you have gotten so much experience in different industries too, cuz I'd like to point that out to people coming into the field is look how varied your career can be, can learn, you could be in three different industries but yet doing the same job. I love that about it.

Lila Landis (36:17):

Yeah, I think some, I would say that there are some parts of trade compliance, some industries that tend to be very insular in that you have to get in early to be able to continue in that industry. To me, textiles is like that. It's always been kind of its own animal within the trade compliance field. I feel like if you have no textile experience, it's hard to get into a trade compliance role for textiles. And because they have so many of their own special compliance things that they have to go through aerospace can be that way. And I'm sure that that's something that you've seen as well where a lot of times there's a strong preference for someone who already has aerospace knowledge because it's viewed as being very particular within the field. But I think there's definitely, like I mentioned with being able to switch back and forth between import export or having a role that covers both. There's definitely opportunities to work for different industries and it's nice because it gives you a different flavor for the type of trade compliance regulations you can deal with. And I think that kind of varied experience can be really valuable to an organization because you come in with a different perspective and different thinking than maybe some folks who have always worked in that same exact industry.

Kellie Kemock (37:35):

They don't have the, we've done it this way, we've always done it this way. Mindset. Can I ask you if you have any insight as to your biggest career mistake? Have you made any mistakes in your career that maybe other people can avoid or you can provide advice on?

Lila Landis (37:52):

So yes, I would say certainly I've definitely made mistakes in my career. Everyone makes mistakes in their career and the most important thing is to really understand that what was the mistake? Why was it a mistake and what can I learn from that? So I would say early on in my career, I really felt like there was one right answer for where trade compliance should report to within an organization. In my mind that was legal. I felt like trade compliance, you're dealing with legal regulations, you're talking about protecting the company by making sure that we're complying with those legal regulations. The legal department seems to be a natural fit. I felt like the legal department had the weight or the gravitas within the company <affirmative> to be able to affect compliance. And so that was really where I felt that trade compliance belonged. And I call that a mistake because I've now reported to multiple different departments across my career.

(38:56):

And what I've learned from that is that the particular department you report to, the name of that department does not matter. I don't believe it matters. What I found really matters is the head of that department, how they view trade compliance or global trade, how they view what your group does and whether it adds value to the organization and how the company culture overall views trade compliance. That's much more important. So I did actually have the opportunity to be part of the legal department and one of the job roles that I had, and it was the worst experience that I had in trade compliance. So I was the only non lawyer within the legal group. And so then not having a JD behind my name, that team really just didn't view me as fitting within legal and they didn't respect the subject matter expertise that I brought to the group.

(39:54):

So they really viewed that without being a lawyer that you can't competently speak to any of the regulatory statutes and that you wouldn't be able to say what is or isn't compliant. Even though I'm like, okay, you're a lawyer, but have you studied 15 CFR or 19 or 22? Do you know the OFAC regulations? These are things where they didn't have any particular experience in trade compliance, but they felt that being a lawyer gave them more authority than me. So I really thought I belonged in legal until I actually worked for legal and I will not make that mistake again. <laugh>, it definitely depends on the organization. And so I think that where trade compliance falls within an organization, ultimately it tells you a little something about how that organization views compliance. So that's helpful in thinking about how the company culture is in terms of how trade compliance is gonna be viewed, but really the leader that you're reporting up through is much more important than the particular department or function

Kellie Kemock (41:02):

That is life changing for me. I have made myself a rule, it's a hard and fast rule in my career that I will not be in a company trade compliance group again unless it's in legal. So I am really taking this to heart because that actually, I don't wanna make the same mistake that you are saying that you made, but that's so shocking that I made myself that rule.

Lila Landis (41:27):

Well, and I'm not saying that legal is always the wrong choice, <affirmative>, I'm just saying that I don't think that there is one right choice where is a hard and fast rule that applies across all industries, across all companies. Okay. Because I think it's perfectly possible for you to be a trade compliance person reporting into finance and just have fantastic leadership support that enables you to do the things that you really wanna do to have a great trade compliance program for that organization. And it's perfectly possible to have that in supply chain or in procurement or in logistics or in legal. It's just that it really depends on the organization and the leader.

Kellie Kemock (42:07):

I made the rule because of a bad experience working in the supply chain, being part of the supply chain not being valued. No one listens. We to, we had to use scare task tactics to get people to listen to us fines and penalties every time. And it wasn't a good corporate culture wasn't, what you're saying is it wasn't necessarily because I was in supply chain, it was that the corporate culture wasn't supporting me like it should. So whether you're supply chain or legal, if the corporate culture supports you will do better.

Lila Landis (42:42):

Absolutely.

Kellie Kemock (42:43):

That's so cool. Thank you for that.

Lila Landis (42:45):

It's one of the hardest things to suss out when you're interviewing with a company. It's really difficult to get a feel for the company culture. There are definitely questions that you can ask, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna get a candid answer from the people that are interviewing with you. But it's one of the most important things that you can do when trying to determine if you're gonna join an organization or not is getting a feel for what their company culture is like. And so you just have to read between the lines and listen to both what is said and what is not said and start to get a feel for, is this going to be a place where you are valued, where your subject matter expertise is respected and considered? Or is it going to be a place where you're constantly gonna be fighting for any recognition?

Kellie Kemock (43:34):

I'd have to think about that one. What would ask in an interview to gauge corporate culture? That's probably the most difficult question ever.

Lila Landis (43:42):

So I think it depends a little bit on the role, but one of the things is, so for me, oftentimes when I've been brought onto an organization, it's because they have recognized that they have a need for a trade compliance program and they're looking for someone to come in and build one for them. So then what I want to hear from them is, why do you think you need a trade compliance program to hear them talk about that? And I think that can be very telling. What do they say in justifying why they need a trade compliance program? Did they get their hands slapped by a regulatory agency? Right? Did they suddenly get some fines and well, I guess we oughta have somebody now, maybe not necessarily those words, but listening to what they're saying, are they saying, somebody told me that I have to have a trade compliance person and so I'm hiring a trade compliance person.

(44:34):

Or is we realize that we have this NAFTA program and we don't feel like it's as managed as well as it could be, but it's really important to our company. And so we want someone to come on and really do a good job with this, really just listening to what are they saying about why they're filling that role? And partially it's too would do for any role asking about is this a brand new position that you've just created versus is this a backfill for someone and why did that person leave? And if you're hearing that that person just totally left the company and there's no one doing trade compliance right now, that tells you something about the company culture. And so it depends a lot on the role. But I think that there are some questions you can ask that helps you to get a feel for what it's like there.

(45:24):

I also usually like to ask, what are you looking for me to accomplish in the first 90 days, first six months, first year, Getting the feel for what are their expectations? Because then that's gonna tell you about how they view your role. If they're just looking for you to come on and just process things transactionally day to day and there's nothing strategic about it that tells you part about how they are going to view trade compliance versus if they have ideas about how they want you to take their trade compliance program forward to be able to do more things for their company, then that's a totally different environment that you're gonna be in.

Kellie Kemock (46:04):

I like that. I would want to reiterate to people interviewing to be in trade compliant, you need to make an educated decision because my biggest career mistake was joining. I joined a company for two weeks and quit and the red flags were there and I ignored them. The position was open, the last person was in there for two weeks and quit as well. They told me to classify by looking up the description in the database and just using that classification. I was like, I don't like any of this that's going on. So yeah, you really have to choose your company wisely.

Lila Landis (46:43):

Even a bad job can give you good experience because you know, think about it, you might be in a bad role for a little while and you're, you are gonna be in a difficult situation, but I bet you still learn some things and you get better at sales pitches. I think that's part of what being in an organization that doesn't value compliance, you really have to step up your game in terms of how you sell trade compliance. And so then it can be a developmental role in that kind of a sense. So you can still get some good experience and at least some very good stories out of some bad jobs.

Kellie Kemock (47:21):

I wanted to talk about leadership and or mentoring, whichever one you feel like you have a better opinion, a bigger opinion on. Because I want, me personally, I wanna grow as a leader, and so I'd like to hear what other people's theories are on leadership, how to prove that I am a leader or how to gain leadership experience and how to be a good leader. And then mentoring, I wanted to help out some of these people who have reached out to me and I just don't know how to do that or what I should say and all of that. So any guidance would be great.

Lila Landis (47:58):

Sure. And in terms of leadership, I'm a big believer in a servant leadership model. I think that servant leadership is something that works really well for when you're leading a team. And I think it also works very well for trade compliance because you are typically a function within the business where your customers are truly internal customers. You're there to protect the company, but also to serve the business. And so I think a servant leadership model works really well for that in terms of establishing yourself within the organization as someone that people want to come to and talk to versus what we talked about earlier of this police mindset of that you're just going to tell them no or slap their hands. So I try to really, when I'm in a new organization, establish myself as someone that people recognize as a subject matter expert, but are willing to come to you and ask questions of.

(48:58):

And in really coming from a place of trying to help. So looking at how can we get to a yes if you are that mindset of I wanna help you, I wanna help the business, I just wanna do it compliantly. And I think a lot of times that you're able to establish credibility and establish good relationships with those internal customers so that they do come to you, they do involve you, and you're not learning about things after the fact and then dealing with violations. So I think a servant leadership model to me works really well for our field. And it's something that I try to employ and I find it works very well with my team as well, looking at how I can support them and make them successful and then I am successful through their success. So in terms of mentoring, think a lot of that really to me, it's on the mentee.

(49:49):

If you are seeking out a mentor for the mentee to really know why do you want a mentor and what are you looking to get out of mentoring? So I mentor a couple of people right now, and one of the things that I always ask people when they come to me and ask me to be a mentor is, What is it that you wanna get out of mentoring? Why did you approach me to be your mentor? Right? Because I wanna get a feel for what their goals are and why they thought that I would be a good mentor to them because sometimes they might have goals where it's not necessarily something that I can help them with. I come from a trade compliance background. And so then if they're coming to me and saying, Well, I really want to get into this financial analyst role, I'm probably not the best person to help you with that.

(50:38):

I just don't have the experience in that area. But if they're coming to me and they want to move up within a global logistics position or trade compliance position, or perhaps they just want more advice on how to be a leader or how to improve some of their leadership skills, those are things that I would feel like I can help them with and be appropriate. And then I think from there, being a mentor, it's gonna be about really listening to what your mentee is saying and giving them a perspective that they can't get themselves being kind to someone sometimes is being really honest with them. And so you wanna help them see weaknesses or gaps or development areas that maybe someone else is not alerting them to. A lot of times, leaders, I think can be a little reticent to actually give constructive criticism to the people that are on their team because they find that to be a difficult conversation. They don't want to make waves, they don't want to damage a relationship or feel like the person's going to be upset with them by saying that. And so then you should assume that your mentee may not know that they have those development areas, and that's part of the kindness that you do to them as a mentor by helping to see that and guiding them through how to get better at those areas.

Kellie Kemock (51:58):

Well, great. Thank you so much for your time and your advice. I love hearing about all of the different aspects of your career especially the export side. I don't have a lot of experience in it, so it's always just interesting to see the flip side of the coin. Right. So thank you for that. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

Lila Landis (52:16):

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the invite and I hope that your listeners enjoy some of the stories and look forward to continuing to connect with you.